I’m Alison Grieve, I’m currently a founder and one of the directors at Management Dynamics. When I think about my career journey to now, one of the people I really admired was Steve Jobs and one of the things he said was ‘You can only join the dots looking backwards’. So, when I look at where I am now and I look back across the path that I’ve taken to get here, it does all make sense. Although some of it probably didn’t look like it was going to make sense at all. I can tell you that from a very early age, as a little girl, I loved reading and travelling and for some reason I wanted to run my own business. When you play in the garden being mummies and daddies, I would run my own business and I have no idea where that came from. It was usually some big oil company!

I also knew I wanted to work internationally and so going to university and when I was looking for jobs that international work was a key criteria for anywhere that I was going to work. That was there right from a very early age. Looking at how I approach work, our business, and our clients we take a very systemic approach and now I can relate it back to how I studied Economics at University, and I really enjoyed it. It was an extra subject that I’d taken on as I was studying Languages because I was going to travel and then I took Economics and switched. It was the systemic view that Economics takes of looking at complex systems, whether its an economy or microeconomics. Whichever aspect it’s looking at all the different levers that you can pull and how that has an impact on the rest of the system. Now I look at what we do and we’re looking at systems all the time within organisations and within people and what impacts how we are. So that started way back.

The other thing is about how important purpose is and having your own purpose and how that integrates with the work that you’re doing. That’s something that was very true for me when I joined Mars and one of the reasons I wanted to join them as a company was because they lived their purpose, it wasn’t just on the walls. They lived their values; those values are in my blood and its part of what we do at Management Dynamics, it’s all about integrity and how we treat our customers, our suppliers, and each other and having high levels of quality in our work. So those are very fundamental, and I think I can see them coming through. I learnt from really good managers as well at Mars, that has also been something that’s shaped my thinking and where I’ve got now. A funny way of looking at my career today but it’s grown and made sense.

I think that’s really nice because it’s so easy in your twenties to feel a bit lost, you’re not really sure what you’re doing, you’re hopping around trying different things. It can feel like a bit of a mishap and things aren’t making sense. So, it’s really nice to know that actually when you look back it will all make sense with what you’ve learnt and why you’ve done that journey. That’s very reassuring to hear.

That’s really good because you know I also worked in different functions. So, I started in IT and then moved from there into finance for a bit and then HR. So, you can never know, and I was so lucky with Mars being a very open organisation to moving people around. I would just say, people should have a go and other things will open up. Don’t worry if it doesn’t make sense, one day you’ll look back and you’ll go ‘who would have thought, that’s that red link that’s all the way through’.

Throughout Mars and into Management Dynamics and on that journey have you felt like you faced any challenges or disadvantages being a woman?

Yes and No. Part of it is my own mental philosophy was being a woman shouldn’t hold me back. Many of the women that I am interested in, and I’m inspired by would not let ceilings get in their way of doing what was important to them. However, it would be silly to say that there had never been challenges as a result of being a woman. In fact, in many of the scenarios that I’ve worked in, both within in Mars and outside of Mars (particularly when I left Mars and have been working with a wide range of organisations and in different countries), I’ve been the only woman in a room with multiple leaders. I’m the one that’s developing them or advising them or facilitating them and sometimes it can be bit daunting, but you just have to ground yourself and say I’m here for a reason and I’m going to do my job and that’s it. I have earned a place to be here and so I’m not a token. I’ve never felt like the token woman. There’s been a few uncomfortable moments, I would say, which nowadays people might call sexual harassment. Groups of people going to places that I don’t want to go because that’s just not how I am, there were probably men who were uncomfortable in those situations too. Nowadays there’s a lot more talk about what’s appropriate in certain settings and so people shouldn’t behave in particular ways, which is good. There were times when I did feel uncomfortable but did I ever feel really at threat? I’ve not had experiences like some women who’ve been in ‘Me Too’. I’ve never had any of that or anything that I couldn’t have pushed away and diffused very early on, so it didn’t happen.

I think sometimes demanding that respect really helps because sadly if you come across a bit more gentle or quiet they’ll latch onto that. If you feel very aware that you’re the only woman in the room and that they might feel a certain way, they will latch onto that and therefore treat you a certain way. So sometimes its going in and demanding respect, you know you’ve been hired for a reason because you’re amazing at your job and that’s why you’re there because they’ve got to learn from you.

Yes, not being afraid to push back and say it’s okay if you don’t want this that’s fine and usually, they turn around. I think asserting yourself, not in a bossy directive way that’s definitely not my style at all but just being sure of yourself and being grounded about why you’re there and what’s your purpose. Being prepared, that’s always really important.

You’ve talked quite a bit about the managers that you’ve had and the impact they’ve had on you. Who would you say has been your biggest female inspiration?

Well, I have thought long and hard about this question and there’s not one. I can’t say the biggest or if I was to it’s probably my mother. She inspired me to think that I should have a career, that I deserved a career and that it was important to be independent and as a girl you could do anything you wanted. That was something that I got from her, but I also got that from my father too. Maybe I could actually say he might have been even more inspirational in terms of that then her. Women who inspired me, there’s the early ones like Amelia Earhart, Vera Brittain and Emmeline Pankhurst. Those women were so inspirational, they went against the odds, the grain, they were tough and sassy and there’s something about that that I really like. At work, Debbie Bones was an amazing manager, Judy Zagorski was another one who inspired me to have a go but be thoughtful about it and build good relationships. I also am inspired by Lisa Lahey, I was on a course with her, and she was awesome, I love the stuff she’s written and Michelle Obama. I think there’s a wide range of women out there who are really inspirational. I worked with a lovely lady called Mandy Barter who founded a charity from nothing, and I find her inspirational. So, I think there’s lots of women who, at all kinds of levels, in different ways inspire me. If I think about what’s the characteristics of those women, I think it’s their perseverance, they have something that they want to do, they don’t let go of it and they push through whatever it is to get it and they bring people along with them. But they do it in a way that is ethical, full of integrity, positive intent, and really live values that I aspire to. That’s the women that I like.

How can women best support other women in business and leadership?

I’ve met a couple of really scary women and who have almost become like men to fulfil their leadership roles and but looking back at it I think that’s because of the environment and the culture they were in. That’s the only way they could survive in it, but I think how does that then support other women in developing and growing because I do believe fundamentally women should be helping other women. So, for me I think its about modelling and showing what women can do and encouraging other women as well. We know from research that women are more likely to think they’re not capable and therefore not have a go, so they won’t even apply for the job because they haven’t ticked all the boxes – there’s lovely research about that. I think encouraging women to have a go, take a deep breath and yes you haven’t ticked all the boxes but if you don’t have a go you’ll never know. I think there’s something there that we can do to really support women much more effectively.

I always remember at school when learning a bit about cover letters and applications that women are far more likely, even if they just see one box in the job application that they can’t do, or they don’t have experience in they just won’t apply. Whereas men will scan through and even if they can’t do the majority of it will still just apply and go for it. That’s always something that I’m quite glad I learnt when I was younger, to just go for it, carry on applying and don’t let that hold you back which I think is really important.

I think being in a leadership role and constantly reviewing who’s at the table and who’s missing, when I see inspirational women talk that’s always something that they say. Never stop reflecting when you’re in that position, who else is at the table.

How do you feel that, from the start of your journey to now, leadership and that role has changed?

When I started leadership was seen as a much more hierarchical thing, it was much more of a leader with a team that was much more directive. Over the last decades that I’ve been working we have seen a shift in leadership and what’s required, and I think it’s been various drivers, not least the remote working piece but it’s the level of complexity that people are having to manage, lead. We need a lot more collaboration and across lot of teams which means that the leader becomes much more fluid, it’s much more related to a project or a task force rather than just a department who only work for them. I think silos are having to be broken down, so that changes some of the dimensions of what’s needed in leadership. I also think the human interactions are changing too, we used to sit at desks and then suddenly hot desking became topical and then remote working – partly covid but it was already on the cards as lots of people were travelling. All of that virtual working has shifted it too, which means, what is the role of the leader? I think it’s a much more adaptive, collaborative thing that a leader needs to do. They need to be able to adjust and shift but also challenge the group they are working with as a member of the group rather than the director, because they don’t know the answer anymore than anybody else, to come up with solutions together. So, I think they are much more like a conductor in an orchestra where you have lot of people who come and go and it’s quite fluid depending on the piece that you’re playing and indeed different leaders will walk in and conduct the orchestra at different times. You need to know what you are trying to achieve and have the respect of the group, but you don’t make any noise yourself as the orchestra’s conductor, it’s the orchestra itself. So, I think we need to move to that in our mental thinking.

With the remote working I think one of the amazing things is it makes it more accessible to different people for the role, which is fantastic. I also think that adaptiveness that you were saying for leaders, that’s something that women can be so skilful in because they have always had to be so adaptive doing the mother role, the friend role, the daughter role, the high-powered role. I think it comes so naturally to so many women, so its something that’s celebrated, and they excel in it.

I think women are taught from a very young age about adapting to different situations, so it’s an era that will really play to our strength.

So finally what piece of advice would you give to other women who aspire to become leaders?

Have a go! I’d say just jump in and have a go, it’s really fun, you’ll learn so much. It’s definitely not a job where you’re ever done, so that’s what I would say to those who say I haven’t ticked the box yet. You never will, so don’t worry about that, the box is always changing. So have a go, it’s really good fun and if you are at all interested in having an impact or making a difference, or achieving great results become a leader and see what you can do to others. It’s a great experience.