Okay, so I’m Gillian McAuley and I am currently the Chief People Officer with Eakin Healthcare. I’ve been with Eakin for 10 months now and I started my life (from a working perspective) as a lawyer. I was born in Northern Ireland, but we emigrated to Canada, and I started my working life there. I went to university as one of the first of my family to go, qualified as a lawyer and worked as a barrister and solicitor in Canada for a number of years, maybe 5 or 7 years. Then at some point I went in house to a company in Canada specialising in employment law. Then I moved back to Northern Ireland 22 years ago and was going to have to requalify as a lawyer, but I really didn’t want to do that. I enjoyed law, I enjoyed the legal thinking, but I didn’t like the lifestyle that went with being a lawyer and the very long hours that I had worked in my 20’s at big law firms.

So, I got great experience but chose a bit of a different path I suppose as to going into industry. When I came back to Northern Ireland I went back to university and did a part-time postgrad degree at night time to qualify with a HR CIPD qualification and started then to really build my HR career. I sort of had the legal side there, but I needed the HR theory side.

I went into HR roles as a HR manager, HR project manager and then stayed with an organisation called Viridian, which was in Northern Ireland specialising in electricity. We ended up having to split into a new organisation because of European legislation and my boss left so I got the opportunity to take on the HR director’s role. It was a wonderful opportunity but quite a frightening thing actually at that point.  Then from there I did that for a number of years and then moved on to another company which was an owner led company, I’d always worked in corporate so this being owner led was very different. I went into there as a HR director where they had no HR and was able to build a HR function, which was really great. I was there for 7 years and then came to Eakin last year. So, a bit of a meandering journey through different things, not necessarily all planned but all great experiences and learning out of it.

In the law world and the HR world, do you feel like you faced any gender-related roadblocks?

It’s interesting to think about that. I don’t think of my world in gender, I don’t think of myself as a female versus men, but I have found myself throughout a lot of my career, in different industries, where I was the only woman in the room because of very male dominated work environments. There haven’t been moments when I thought ‘oh!’, I’ve clocked it or noticed it but have actually just gotten on with it. I have had difficult people in my career, but they have been both men and women and in fact some of my biggest supporters in helping me grow and develop have been men really trying to push me on which has been really brilliant. Having said that, I’ve had great females helping me too, so there have been moments of difficult people but as I say they have been both genders. So, I don’t sit and think ‘oh that’s a gender moment’, you know there have been the odd subtle thing that has happened, and I think sometimes I’m a little blind to them and just ignore them and battle on through.

I try to think of myself as the person in the room doing the job opposed to, I’m the female HR person, I’m the female lawyer but certainly early days in my career there weren’t a lot of female role models for me to look at. I guess you have some inner resilience so that you can charge on through.

I know you said earlier on you didn’t feel like you had any female role models, since then who would you say is your biggest female inspiration?

Early days in my career, particularly in law firms, the females that were there at very senior levels weren’t people that I wanted to be. They were working extremely long hours, some of them had babies and took no mat leave and I thought that’s not what I want my life to be like. I think that’s an important part of being yourself in business and being a leader, is knowing who you want to be and what you want out of your life and not blindly following the path of what you see.

 In terms of role models for me what I saw that drove me on was seeing people my grandmother’s age, who were smart women who never had an opportunity and felt quite stuck in their life, their relationships, and their family situations. Maybe that was what drove me on more. Always wanting to be in control of my life, both just in control of what I was doing but also financially, having the wherewithal that. So that I could make whatever choices I wanted. So, it’s interesting to think about role models, as for me it’s really the opposite. It’s having wonderful women that you’ve seen who at that generation didn’t have the opportunity to go to university, go to school, it just wasn’t the done thing but never wanting to be that person sitting thinking ‘oh I wish I’d had’ or ‘I feel like I’ve missed out’. That pushed me on a lot.

I have a couple of aunts that were working, one was a teacher, and one was a nurse, those sorts of professional roles. They were probably inspirational to me in terms of seeing how they balance that and being impressed with them in a working world. Then you have the bigger role models like Michelle Obama people like that who are amazing, they’re inspirational but they’re not relevant to your day-to-day life. So of course, there are women that you look at and you’re in awe of but sometimes it’s the people closer to home to you that have the bigger impact in actually either supporting you or learning life lessons from, either the negatives or positives and that can drive you differently.

As amazing and inspirational as people like Michelle Obama are, they’re not very relatable to us and their journeys aren’t always that relevant. Sometimes it’s those people closer to home who are getting through those everyday struggles but you’re getting to see those vulnerable moments and moments that you wouldn’t get to see with someone in the public eye. I think sometimes it’s those really small moments that can actually have a bigger effect on us and are more inspirational.

For International Women’s Day, for instance, there’s a lovely conference that I’ve often gone to, and they have the most amazing people on stage that are international ‘whatever’s’. I think it can be really intimidating for women who are in the day to day thrust of trying to work, manage children, busy lives, got it all going on, trying to cook dinner, do the laundry and just the basics of life. Sometimes those big figures can nearly, as you say, be intimidating or make you feel less proud of what you’re doing and I think we should all be, whatever situation we are in, really proud of whatever we are doing, whatever level you are and that you’re doing the best you can in that situation at that point of time. Don’t look and think ‘oh there’s somebody up there doing all that and I’m only over here doing this’ because that’s not helpful to look at those people. Respect them but just be in control of your own situation and make the best of it, that’s what we should aspire to.

So, you’ve talked quite a bit about not wanting to miss any opportunities or regret anything, but would you say that there’s been a favourite mistake that you know you’ve made but actually you’re really glad you made it because you’ve learnt a lot from it?

I’m a bit of glass half full or glass full person, so I never really think ‘oh that was a mistake’, I have things that I have done that I then changed the course of direction on. I went to law school and became a lawyer and then I decided that isn’t what I wanted to do in terms of being in a private practice, but I wouldn’t look at becoming a lawyer as a mistake. I think I’ve learned immensely through that, it set me up in my career in terms of my learning and my knowledge and I think no matter what you’re in it’s never a mistake. You should never look backwards and think ‘oh I regret…’, I think you should always look forwards and just think what have I learned from that, what will I do differently and how will I not step into that again. I think you’ve always got to reflect on it and if you’re in something that’s not right for you have the courage to step out of that, because once I was a lawyer and I’d done a few years it was kind of a big deal to step out of that career path and say that’s not for me. I didn’t want to spend 30 years doing it and regret it and think ‘oh I wish I’d done something else and moved into another opportunity’. Some of that is not being afraid of moving away from things that aren’t quite right for you.

I definitely think that coming from an academic background, such as law, ‘quitting’ feels quite synonymous with ‘failing’ and its not. You can quit something that actually you’d be really successful at and sometimes it is the most brave and courageous step that you can take if you’re not happy in that role and it’s not fulfilling. It can be really scary to quit, and it can feel like the wrong thing to do or the ‘weak’ thing to do but actually I think it can be a really strong decision and can lead to much better opportunities.

It can be frightening; it takes a bit of energy and a bit of courage to do that.

You said it is a frightening move to have to go from law into HR and doing something completely different.  Did you ever feel imposter syndrome and how did you navigate your way through those feelings?

I think everybody has imposter syndrome; well, I think they do. I certainly do! I certainly have had massive moments of that in my life, of the voice on my shoulder saying, ‘oh god, how did you get here, what are you doing here, someone’s going to find you out’. I think women have that more than men, potentially. You’ve got to shut that down in your head and that’s not easy to do. Some of the ways that I’ve done that is I’ve had good friends, a good mentor, a business coach, I’ve had people around me that are helping support me and push me on and reflect differently to me in terms of when the voice in your head is telling you one thing and somebody else is saying ‘no, that’s not the reality, don’t be silly’. But I think it’s definitely there and it definitely comes up at many points, I don’t care whether you’re junior or senior it’s there. I’ve just been Chamber of Commerce President this last year and I spent the first number of months thinking ‘why am I here, I shouldn’t be here, why have I been asked and surely it should be somebody different’. You just have to get on with it and step into these things and enjoy them for what they’re there for because somebody saw something of value in you and reached out to you. I think everybody has it and that’s just a matter of keeping it at bay.

What would you say is your favourite thing about being a woman in business?

I guess I think of myself as a business person, a leader in a business but not a woman in business, if that makes any sense. I struggle with that; I think I should be a bit more about being a woman in business. I think I like being in business because I feel like I’m contributing to the business. I always think about my life as the important key rocks in my life. I’ve got my family, my health, my community, my friends, so my things for me, being in a business gives me a lifestyle and I’m able to have a good lifestyle with my family. I think it keeps me healthy in terms of my physical and mental health but I’m contributing back into the community and hopefully doing the right thing for my business.

I also sit on board of hospice and a group for helping people get into employment with learning needs, and those are important things for me too. It shouldn’t just be about business in your job, making money, it’s about what can I take from those skills and take into other organisations and helping in a way that I’m giving back. Its kind of a full circle and all of that and then because I’m in HR the other piece for me is helping people within my organisation be the best that they can be, helping them on a career path and building development opportunities for them. It’s really wonderful when you see that happening and then you see people growing through their careers, so I’m pretty lucky that I get to see a lot of different angles to it. I love my job; I love having a life. I’ve got two boys and I think there’s always that struggle as a working mum and that mum guilt of ‘oh god, I should be a stay-at-home mum with them’ but actually as they’ve grown up to be teenagers, they’ve got their own life I’m actually really glad I’ve got my own life. I know who I am, I’ve got what I’m about and I’m not defined by them. They were a really key part of my life, but I have my own piece and hopefully I’m a good role model to them too in life.

So, how do you feel as women in business we can best support each other?

I don’t think of myself as a role model, but I know that others look at me that way and I think its important to know that. To know that people are watching you and are looking at you, I forget that quite often. It’s even the hellos in the corridors or speaking to somebody or being friendly, open, warm, and approachable because sometimes people can be having a hard day or hard time and all they need is just someone to chat to them and say hi. As you get more senior, you might be focused on something and walking down the corridor and thinking about something in your head and walk past somebody and don’t even say hi but that has an impact on people. It’s the simple things like that that often we can forget about. For women right now it’s about reaching out, being supportive and being approachable.

You hear a lot of people talking about helping other women up the ladder (I think that’s right) but it’s being there for people to come and talk to you as well and doing things like this video. This isn’t a norm for me, this is slightly outside my comfort zone but its about speaking out about these things and saying look you too can do this, it’s there for anybody. I came out of a really normal working-class family and these opportunities just came in front of me and you just step into them and get on with it, but anybody can do it. It about being open about that and being transparent about your own journey.

Finally, what piece of advice would you give to women aspiring to become leaders?

I think be true to yourself. I think just be authentic. Look after yourself, so build the selfcare pieces; the good friends, the allies, mentors, whatever it is that you need. It’s hard some days to juggle work and life and kids and elderly relatives and all those things are all there but be true to yourself in the middle of that. Sometimes be a little bit selfish because that is something women aren’t great at so we can get stretched a little bit too far. I’m really guilty of that myself but you have to look after yourself first.

I’d heard this saying years ago and I really liked it: Be the leader you’re waiting for. That has pushed me on a few times. You hear people say ‘oh I wish someone else would do this’ or ‘I wish they would do this’; okay well why can’t I do that and push outside your own boundaries. Take everything that comes in front of you, you might not see it in that point in time, but it does help build your skill set and it can open doors and make you known to people, you can build a network and that can take you on different journeys. That’s been a big part of my career, just stepping into a project outside my normal job role and suddenly that has taken me on to something else that I didn’t see coming and then they’ve been wonderful things. Those are my top tips.